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Oqvist

24h of Daytona

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The spectator in me says no, absolutely not, it was a bit of a dive bomb and a pretty silly attempt at a pass.

The racer in me thinks there was a space, he obviously had his car there, he came from a long way back but was 'alongside' and it was safe and then Albuquerque chopped across his nose on turn in. It was his own fault. 

Tough decision, but the move was fine from Taylor. These are prototypes we're talking about -- Albuquerque could have easily held his line and retained the position, there was no need to turn in and chop across his nose other than the fact that he didn't look in his mirrors. 

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Oqvist   

Albequrque opened the gap and tried to close it again but it was to late. May not be able to see Taylor but after drifting wide he should have a strong suspicion about having a car on his left.

I think it was a race incident had Albequrque stayed on his new line he would been in a better position for next corner.

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nhill40   

Maybe I'm just in the kind of mood to stir up trouble, but I think racing in general could use more of this kind of stuff.

By the letter of the law, this seems like an iffy pass.  But, in the context of this being in the final 7 minutes of a 24 hour race, battling tooth and nail for the class win...this seems like the kind of thing that gets people talking.  Many of the most iconic racers of all time made their name being ruthless - would you like to see Earnhardt or Senna in your mirrors during the final laps of a race?  Hell no!  And not just because they were superlatively talented drivers...it was also because you would have been assured they would be more than willing to take the risk crashing themselves AND you if it meant *maybe* getting the win for themselves.

Racing across most disciplines seems, to me at least, to have evolved an over-developed sense of "fairness".

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The overtaking driver has the primary responsibility for completing a successful pass.

Until a driver overtaking another car is 90 degrees to the left or right of the overtaken driver’s head, the cars are not side-by-side.

Until side-by-side is accomplished, the overtaking driver has the responsibility for a safe pass and ensuring the car being overtaken has room to continue through the corner.

Whichever driver is ahead (as defined by side-by-side explanation in item 10) at the turn-in point of the corner has the rights to the racing line.

http://simhqmotorsports.net/sim-racing-guidelines/#rules

 

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nhill40   
51 minutes ago, Doug Atkinson said:

The overtaking driver has the primary responsibility for completing a successful pass.

Until a driver overtaking another car is 90 degrees to the left or right of the overtaken driver’s head, the cars are not side-by-side.

Until side-by-side is accomplished, the overtaking driver has the responsibility for a safe pass and ensuring the car being overtaken has room to continue through the corner.

Whichever driver is ahead (as defined by side-by-side explanation in item 10) at the turn-in point of the corner has the rights to the racing line.

http://simhqmotorsports.net/sim-racing-guidelines/#rules

 

That's a perfectly clear, unambiguous explanation of what a clean/legal pass looks like.  There is no doubt in my mind every respectable racing series in the world should have something to this effect in their rulebooks...and I also think that, from a spectator's perspective, the most fun to be had is when there are a couple guys within the series who refuse to accept that this rule fully applies to them! :D

 

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I missed too much of the race due to no good streaming.  

Watched qualifying and the Continental GS/ST race on Friday was a lot of fun, as always.  But Fox pulled the plug on streaming this year. Grrrrr.... 

But in GTLM  1. Ford    2. Porsche    3. Ferrari    4. Chevy   ... 8. BMW

Yep, everything is in order here.  :yep:

 

:scuseme:

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Coutie   

He said he knew he was going to move out at the little kink, so he lifted off the brake and went for the space. But they are braking on the limit, so he was going to hit him no matter what most likely. I don't think it was a good pass.

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Matthias   

Regarding Dougs description it was not a legal pass, so he should give him position back.

 

But i am with nhill40. It seems, that if you want to be a champion, you have to do such moves.

You have to be ruthless.

 

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14 hours ago, Doug Atkinson said:

The overtaking driver has the primary responsibility for completing a successful pass.

Until a driver overtaking another car is 90 degrees to the left or right of the overtaken driver’s head, the cars are not side-by-side.

Until side-by-side is accomplished, the overtaking driver has the responsibility for a safe pass and ensuring the car being overtaken has room to continue through the corner.

Whichever driver is ahead (as defined by side-by-side explanation in item 10) at the turn-in point of the corner has the rights to the racing line.

http://simhqmotorsports.net/sim-racing-guidelines/#rules

 

Those are SimHQ Motorsports rules and i fully respect them when i race here. But that is not happening IRL.......

From my experience from real life racing, (and everyone that has, will tell you the same) there is ONLY ONE RULE.  If you make the mistake and open a door (even half of it) expect a "visit" from the car behind. He made a mistake opening that door and when he realise that, he tryied to close it again. But the car was allready there.  He should keep the outside line and not close to the apex.

If the approach from the car behind was coming from a divebomb with weel lock, that would be something different. From what i saw, it was a controlled approach and if the car at front kept the outside line, he would make the turn from the inside.

Just my opinion.

 

Oh wait there is another guy that said the same thing.............

“If you no longer go for a gap which exists you are no longer a racing driver”

Ayrton Senna

 

 

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Panther   

Drove it in deep but he had control of the car, shot for the gap and the door got shut after he was inside. Hard nose racing there.

But I'm bias so. :reading:

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7 hours ago, GeorgeManousakis said:

“If you no longer go for a gap which exists you are no longer a racing driver”

Ayrton Senna

Not everyone thinks highly of this former driver. I classed him as a cheat and a maniac after driving Prost off at Suzuka.

But he was fast so that excuses it all...

and what some call hard nose racing others call cheating; just because the stewards allowed it doesn't mean it was legal.

:behindcouch:

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Magnum   

end of race, so much more open to moves... and just FYI, the whole race in 3 blocks is on you tube now.

 

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20 hours ago, GeorgeManousakis said:

Those are SimHQ Motorsports rules and i fully respect them when i race here. But that is not happening IRL.......

FIA rules. Not just here.

E.H. Lee's quote about aviation, "...there are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots"  Translated into racing "A good racing driver is one that wins and then manages to kill himself in a racing car. A great driver is one that wins and then manages to live to an old age". Being really fast is a poor substitute for being really wise and picking which specific battles to fight. Senna never learned that and depended totally on his considerable raw talent to see him through, until it didn't.

 

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As accurate as that is, it's not like he made a mistake that took his life or anything. No one can say his driving killed him. 

That quote by Senna also is used a lot in error as justification for some silly moves, when he in fact was using it to defend an obviously illegal move. At the end of the day, deserving or not, what is, is. 

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4 hours ago, Doug Atkinson said:

FIA rules. Not just here.

 

"27.6 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner."

 

"27.7 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.
For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a ‘significant portion’."

Source http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110

4._formula_one_-_sporting_regulations_-_2017

 

The only PDF that has specific information about cars positons during overtake is the FIA Formula 1. No other class specifies anything different.

Can you provide where in FIA rules you saw your rules Doug?

 

 

 

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Hi George. I think you just did. :)

"Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his."

But reading that again for the first time in a long while and especially focusing on the phrase "before any braking area" does make me think that is why the race officials didn't call a foul. So WRT it not happening in real life, you win the point! ;)

For our rules, I never intended to qualify them by F1 vs WEC vs GT, etc. We cobbled the write-up from other sites and they have cobbled from us. But yeah, each of the items is based on an FIA reference... except for Gentleman's Rule. That is just being nice and not RW.

An article which refers to Article 27.
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/

 

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The gentleman's rule is just an online take on redressing, and redressing an accident is indeed a real world thing. If possible by the driver, it can lower or nullify any potential penalty to be awarded. Any time you've ever heard of a driver being told to give the position back by his team to avoid an incident is a real life example of the gentleman's rule, and it's basically all just varied forms of redressing.

Depends on the stewards though, I suppose. 

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